Monday, February 27, 2006

CD8/Iraq: The Devil In The Details

Iraq is like the weather, everyone talks about it but no one is specific about what to do about it.

Candidate Latas: Yet in 3 years, they (we) have trained only one out of 15 battalions of Iraqi soldiers to defend their own country. Something isn't right about that. It is time for us to leave Iraq to the Iraqi people.

Candidate Weiss: The Shi’ites, the Sunnis and the Kurds must continue their negotiations to create their new government. If those factions believe the U.S. military will stay indefinitely, they will lack the motivation to stabilize their own country.

Candidate Giffords: Arizonans were given false evidence for invading Iraq but our troops deserve gratitude for doing a tough job under perilous conditions. We need to quickly build international cooperation so the Iraqi people can govern themselves effectively. My priority is to bring our troops home safe and soon.

Candidate Shacter: We need to plan and execute a speedy withdrawal from Iraq; staying the course is not an option. The US should coordinate planning and assist in a multi-national rebuilding Iraq.


Everyone wants to get out. We were suckered into the war in the first place and it has been a ruinous expense. If “staying the course” is not an option exactly what course is it that we shouldn’t stay?

Shacter and Giffords clearly want to stay one course, that of building multi national cooperation towards a re-built and self-governing Iraq. Weiss and Latas seem to be saying either that we should get out now or at some date in the near future. No mention is made about re-building.

I’m skeptical about our success in getting multi-national cooperation in pulling our chestnuts out of the fire, but pulling out and letting the Iraqis kill one another until they have it sorted out doesn’t seem like a good idea, either.

It’s interesting that none of the candidates are proposing a three-state solution based on agreements to share oil revenues.


cactuswren said...


I'd love to hear more about your idea of three-state division of Iraq with oil sharing. I hope you write more about it. I'd heard discussion about it back when we first went into Iraq but not lately.

It is my sense that things are so far gone, that we may well have to just pack it up and let the democratically elected government of Iraq figure it out for themselves.

My second thought is along the lines of Shacter who clearly says staying the course will not work, and suggests a coordinated international reconstruction effort in Iraq. Giffords says something like this with "international cooperation" but it seems more squishy.

I think to achieve the above, the US has to announce it is departing and pulling up all the bases they've put up in Iraq, give its full support to an international reconstruction summit, support creation of an Iraqi reconstruction bank, and an international peace keeping force.

I'm no mid-East expert but from what I read on Juan Cole, I'm not sure that even international reconstruction will fly now.

I don't think we should shy away from it even if it is difficult, but it has to be a desired solution by Iraq to have any chance of working.

Back to work...

Art Jacobson said...

Dear Cactus Wren,

I've commented on your response int the main body of the blog. Thanks


Anonymous said...

Posted on the dailykos was a very detailed blog on what the candidates said at all the forums about Iraq. Do a tag search.

Gabby and Patty, flip flopped

Latas and Shacter, alway wer for getting out. The blog is a verbatum quote. Check it out.

cc burro said...

My speculation--Though the 3-state solution would have its own problems, I think that that solution would be better for people of Iraq, as long as the oil revenues from all of the wells went through one entity and was somehow evenly distributed to the 3 new [old] countries.

Also, I think we're going to need to eat some public humble pie before we get substantive help from the international community. Can you imagine Bush doing this?

George Tuttle said...

Simply stated-Jeff Latas has led the way on this issue (among others). He has the collateral that they don't have and won't have throughout this campaign-actual combat/military experience.

This who flip-flop thing started when "Gabby" and Patty heard the overwhelming applause during the event and support after the event.

"Gabby" and Patty are simply weak and vulunerable on this issue to liberal democrats (because they know they flip-flopped) and to moderate Republican (because they flip-flopped and have no military experience).

It's called having conviction. Too bad it has no place in the other campaigns. Oh, and speaking of conviction-it's nice to see the Tucson Citizen picking up the fact that "Gabby" was (and some might say still is..) a Republican before she paid a visit to the dark side and sold her credibility out the window just so she could win a seat in the state house. (Please don't try that arguement that she won in a Republican dominated district-the only reason she ran as a Democrat was to pick up support from the then weak Democratic party and she used her name recognition to win a thin victory.)

cc burro said...

George Tuttle,

From another Latas supporter--What you say comes off more as heat then light.

My speculation is that most of the contributors to this blog and the other blogs are already committed to a candidate, so most of this argumentation is posturing.

The fact that someone was previously a Republican is a non-issue. Aren't you hoping that many Republicans will abandon the elephant for the donkey (burro)? Many local Democrats supported Wesley Clark in 2004, another relatively recent convert to the Democratic party. By making over-the-top, non-substantive, non-specific, and/or unsubstantiated criticisms of Giffords or Weiss, you make yourself appear ignorant. Also, don't you realize that you are NOT helping Jeff???

Why not indicate the reasons you support him?

I support Jeff for his honesty, his strong support for energy independence and energy alternatives, his reasonableness and willingness to listen to different points of view on a subject, his having a masters in public administration and a bachelor of science in aerospace engineering degree [a very difficult degree to obtain], his Pentagon experience, his fighter pilot experience in Desert Storm [he flew in the first attack wave], the fact that he is self-confident but not arrogant.

I also support his passion for doing the right thing.

Why don't you do likewise and focus on the positive?

Gary said...

Some of us who read this are still undecided.

I have to say I don't like the attacks and lying about candidates that goes on here. Weiss did not flip flop. Please stop spreading those rumors all over the blogs. I was there at all the events, I heard her. Anyone can post up a partial transcript. Besides, the transcript didn't show Weiss as floppying.

So, George, I am a liberal and you don't speak for me saying we *know* they flip-flopped. Because I do know the truth. Anonymous, same with you.

I spoke with Weiss early on before any of the forums and she was for getting out. She favored the Murtha plan. Latas has changed his position on other issues too. So what? I happen to like both of them for different reasons.

The third person I am still considering is Giffords. It will all depend on if her campaign will willingly release data all her votes and all the bills up for vote when she was in the House and Senate. Unfortunately I can't search the legislative site because she is no longer listed. I would think her best selling point would be her voting record if it is good, and cannot figure out why her campaign isn't posting that on their site. Art, as a supporter of hers, maybe that is something you could get and post here? I would imagine she has had a good record to get Grijalva's support so she should use that.

I donated to Latas. That said, if his supporters keep spreading lies all over the blogs, he will lose any future support. It is both childish and Republican-like tactics. Did you read the column in the Tucson Citizen last week? Those childish tactics are even getting in the main press now and that will hurt Latas.

I want the best candidate to win so I am giving support to all who seem progressive and have a chance at winning. I will make up my mind when I get more facts.

Name calling, lies, and distortions do not get support from people smart enough to check facts.

Kralmajales said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Kralmajales said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Boy, what a bunch of grap.

Has anyone thought that the "childish attacks and sniping" just might be the tactic of some other campaign. I could very easily be a Gabby fan sniping at her and make it sounding like a Latas fan.

By the way, Ms Stanton went pretty negative, more so than anyone I've seen. She even picks the letters to the editor since she is an editor, then attacks Latas directly and back handedly attacks Weiss.

Enough of the bioching. What are the issues and what are the solutions. I've been to a couple forums and have been through the web sites. I have made my choice for now and I may change my mind later. We have six months to go. Yes I want to know if the Giffords campaign got rid of the chairs for union endorsements, maybe some reporter will investigate. If not, God Damn it, someone ask her at the next speaking event. If she does a side step, ask again. Get the answer and report it back.

Thank God all want out of Iraq. That's what we all want now, isn't it? Who cares about how one thought three months ago?

Kralmajalas, if you have the record let's see it. I can't find anything except Giffords web site. If I have to make my choice on that, it's not looking real good for her. I beg to differ on the others; I think they all have quit impressive records to run on. Hope you can open your opinion and mind to their career and life experiences they bring to this race. Legislative experience is good, but is not everything.

geotuttle said...

Can anyone here point out a lie that I have person said about any of the candidates?

If anyone of you are offended by my postings, my apologies. I'm sorry my passion has offended you.

cc burro said...


I have tried on several occasions to navigate on ALIS [bill tracking] and had a very difficult time with it.

One option is to go to Project VoteSmart, but they may not have anything up on the CD 8 primary candidates yet because the primary is 5-6 months away. Another option is to go to the websites for [local chapters of?] the advocacy groups that you support. I'm sure that most of these groups will be sending questionnaires to the candidates and, in many cases, interviewing them in order to decide on endorsements or ratings. It is possible that these groups may post these questionnaires and the answers.

Also, if you have questions regarding specific issues or policies, I recommend that you go to the candidates' websites to check their issue stances and/or e-mail/call the campaign with your questions. [It's still early in the campaign so the candidates area probably still in the process of putting together materials for their websites.]

FYI--Please know that the majority of any of the candidates' supporters do not blog or write nasty letters. I'm sure that the candidates don't want their supporters writing nasty/lying/stupid blogs and letters because of the KARMA boomerang effect and because it could ultimately hurt the Democratic party and our chance of winning the CD 8 seat.

cc burro said...


Passion is an asset, not a liability. What concerns me are these blogs in which this passion is being expressed in a way that seems devoid of reason, facts or statements which are backed-up and they come off as unfair rants--totally not credible.

Latas '06!